Turning Your Passion Into Your Profession (No Degree? No Problem!) w/ Daniel "DTM" Flores

[00:00:00.000] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Wait a minute, cartoonists get paid for their art. Comic book artists get paid for their art. Animators, there's cartoons on TV. Yo, this is real. How can I do this? I want to know. Somebody show me. And so that been on that quest ever since until this day.
 
 [00:00:19.520] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Today's creator is Daniel DTM Flores, a multi-disciplinary artist with over 25 years of experience. Dtm was born in the rough streets of East LA, but he always had a pencil in hand. After serving in the US Marines and working as a dishwasher and forklift driver, DTM landed an apprenticeship as a tattoo artist, which was the start of an incredible career. Today, DTM has a thriving career as a painter, illustrator, graphic designer, and streamer on Adobe Live. His artwork has been exhibited in museums and commissioned by many large brands, including Microsoft. In today's episode, DTM will share how he turned his passion into his profession and the power of repetition to make yourself into a world-class artist without any degrees or certifications. Hey, Daniel, how are you doing? And should I call you Daniel or DTM?
 
 [00:01:07.420] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I am doing great. My name is DTM, but you can call me Dan, Daniel, whatever you want. It's all good with me.
 
 [00:01:15.280] - Jesus Ramirez
 What does DTM stand for? Because I think it might be Dan the man, but I see that your Instagram handle is @deltatango...
 
 [00:01:23.690] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Mike. So the origin is, of course, my name is Daniel. People call me Dan. When I was in high school, and this is a long time ago, I thought I was going to be the first Mexican rapper. It was mostly words that rhymed together, didn't mean nothing. But people in high school started calling me Dan the Rapping Man. Then later people got tired of saying the whole Dan the Raping Man, and they just said Dan the Man. I think that anybody named Dan, Fran, Sam, all these the man, they add that to them. So it's nothing unique about it. But as times went on, I joined the Marine Corps. And by the time I got to the Marine Corps, I would just say in DTM because I like the Dan the Man. But even now when I say it, it sounds cool for people who are okay with it, but I'm pretty sure then people hear it like, That's lame. So in the military, you have the phonetic outfit, alpha, alpha, bravo, Charlie, delta. And so one day, one guy was talking to me and he says, Delta Tango, Mike. And it hit me. I mean, literally, those are the times in your life where something just hits you in your face and you're like, Whoa, that is amazing.
 
 [00:02:39.050] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 And from then on, it was Delta Tango, Mike, Delta Tango, Mike. To this day, I tell people DTM or Delta Tangle Mike is my artist's name, and then the Creative Genius is my title.
 
 [00:02:51.780] - Jesus Ramirez
 I like that. That's a very good title to have.
 
 [00:02:53.890] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 That's right.
 
 [00:02:54.180] - Jesus Ramirez
 All right, so I guess we'll just go with DTM for the show.
 
 [00:02:57.540] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Yes.
 
 [00:02:57.850] - Jesus Ramirez
 You touched up on something that I wanted to talk to you about. So you talked about being in the Marine Corps, and I heard a story about you. I heard that you were selling T shirts in the Marine Corps to your troops. I also heard a story that your mom used to sell Top Glove. So I'm assuming that's where the whole hustling mentality came along. And tell us a little bit about that, about I'm an artist and I'm going to start selling T shirts to my troops.
 
 [00:03:20.670] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 That's right. Yeah. So growing up in our household, there were stacks of boxes full of A1. And then lots of top of wear parties. And so you're sitting there watching this whole show. I mean, a real sales pitch. You don't think about it when you're a little kid. When you're a little kid, you're bored and tired. You're like, Why are we here? But now looking back, it's like, My goodness, mom was the ultimate salesperson. She was a very nosy person. No matter who you were, where she was, at the bus stop, at church, at the grocery store, she would strike a conversation. And next to you know, she's slipping that Avon catalog. And as a kid, she would give me bags and say, This bag goes to so and so. This bag goes over there and this bag goes over here. And they're going to give you money. They're going to give you money. They're going to give you money. And then there you go. Get on my bike and I'm gone, delivering and then picking up money, bringing it back and so on. And so growing up, that was part of the normal lifestyle for us.
 
 [00:04:24.650] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 And then if I want to go further than that, my grandparents in Mexico and my family in Mexico all had small convenience stores, or they sold at the open-air market. So they had this whole idea about finding that position between the things that people want and the people who want them. You get right there in the middle. Oh, my God. If I think about it and I could write a whole book about it, but I already said it's already out there. This all information is out there. So as I got older and I was in the Marine Corps, this is in the early days, you go through training school. And so you graduate out of boot camp, there's some extra training, and then you go to training school where they train you on the thing you're going to do. And so I wanted to have a job after the Marine Corps. And so I chose something to deal with computers, and it was just data entry, but it was computers. And just seeing other military people and having these branded shirts of their Battalion, of their company, and so on, I thought, That's a cool idea.
 
 [00:05:28.460] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Why don't we have one? But we're in school, we're only there for six to eight weeks or whatever before they ship us out to where you're going to go. And so I said to myself, Let me see if I can print our own shirts. So I talked to all my teammates who were in that class. I said, Here's the design that I'm going to print on a shirt. Do you want one when I get them? And they're like, Yes. And so by then, I had already priced out the shirts. I went to a local shop. I asked them how much it cost. So I had my numbers. When I was talking to everybody, about it. They started giving me money. I collected all the money, went and put in the order. A week later, I'm handing out shirts. The instructors, they're like, Where's our shirt? That was a cool thing. I still have that shirt. I have a bag of shirts from all the shirts that I ever printed with my artwork, and I keep them in a sealed bag for posterity. One day I'll have my own library, I'll be long gone and they'll be like, Yeah, Dan, that was Dan's first shirt.
 
 [00:06:28.320] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 And so the art is ugly, it's terrible, but I did it. And man, there's a rush that comes over you when you offer your work to someone and they're ready and willing, like, yes, I'll take that.
 
 [00:06:45.600] - Jesus Ramirez
 You mentioned something very important, I think, and I want to dive deeper into it. You mentioned that the art wasn't very good, your words. I'm sure it was great. Seeing your work now, I'm sure it was great. But the point is that I am someone who believes in repetition, and I'm sure that's when you started flexing those art muscles, if you will, in terms of putting yourself in between the customer and what they want. And where I'm going with this is, from what I understand, you're someone who doesn't have any art degrees.
 
 [00:07:16.940] - Jesus Ramirez
 And I heard a great quote from you, which was that if somebody asked you for an art degree, you don't have anything to show them. But what you do have is a ton of work. And all that matters is that you can produce. My assumption would be that you believe that people should be educated, but you don't have to be formally educated, especially in the field that you're in.
 
 [00:07:41.150] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Yes, and yes. And you did a good job of looking me up and watching some of my videos and paying attention to what I say. In a nutshell, correct, you do not need college education, but you need an education. And this is the part where I stress out in the longer conversations is that when I was learning Photoshop, illustrator, I did not teach myself. We say self taught, and that's okay to say that because it's opposite of school education. But that's not a correct words to use because we don't teach ourselves. We don't write the book and then read the book and now we know illustrator. So the reality is that we still seek out knowledge, we still seek out the answers and we study. And that's what I did. Twenty years ago when I was picking up illustrator, and to this day, they still have those big, thick books like this. But that was the only source of information that you would learn how to use a particular software. It's big, thick books or those big magazines, layers, Photoshop, and so on, where you go through tutorials and so on. So I will spend many a night, all night long, going over, clicking on stuff, reading the page, clicking on stuff, figuring out what's happening here and how can I control this thing.
 
 [00:09:01.940] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I've been like my mother. I'm a nosy person. I get into conversations with people. I just spark up conversation. My wife, sometimes she doesn't like hanging out with me because people are going to talk to me and I'm going to speak back and get into a conversation. But I always had a group of smart people around me, right? A talented artist. Wherever I see an artist, I want to talk to them. I don't know what's going on in their life. I want to talk to them about their art. And so in the early days, I would get on the phone and ask questions like, I need to understand Cork Express. I have three days to knock out this CD booklet that I gave them. I gave them a high price because I didn't want to do it. They accepted my price, so now I got to learn Cork Express. What do I need to do here? They would sit on the phone for an hour or two, explain to me. It's like, I got it. I get it. I got it. The education part is very important. How you go about it, I think that we need to not stress out about college degrees or certifications because I have none.
 
 [00:10:07.260] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 You have a couple of pillows behind you. I have a couple of pillows myself.
 
 [00:10:11.630] - Jesus Ramirez
 You're talking about the Adobe app pillows behind us. For those people listening, yeah, we have pillows in our background.
 
 [00:10:17.700] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 That's right. Not your bed. This is your set up.
 
 [00:10:21.430] - Jesus Ramirez
 We're not sitting in my bedroom right now.
 
 [00:10:24.520] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Correct. Yes, I have Adobe illustrator pillows with the logo on it. And so I love the ecosystem. I love everything that the Creative Cloud offers. I've been using their tools for a long, long time. I don't know the names of certain things, so I'm not into taking tests. However, I am very big into proving that I can do the work. And that's where education is very important in terms of building up your talent, discovering your talent, building up your skills, and then learning how to present your work and finally negotiating. And that's all it requires education, whether you go to school, if you're comfortable going to school, that's great. Me, I just there's something about sitting down and getting fed information and then spinning it out into a test that doesn't work for me. But I am definitely all about asking tons of questions and having smart people around you.
 
 [00:11:20.420] - Jesus Ramirez
 I noticed that in some of the stuff that I've seen that you put out, how you're somebody who believes in repetition, you're always doing something, you're always trying. It seems like you're always involved in some project. You're passionist, it's very clear. I heard a story about you, about someone you met at DragonCon, and how this person gave you a quote. When I heard you say that quote, I was like, Oh, my God, that is so true. I've never actually thought about that, but for me, it's very true. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the quote was, If you really want it, you're going to find the time. That was in the context of creating artwork. I believe specifically for this person was to create a comic book. If you don't mind telling the story and talking about finding the time.
 
 [00:11:59.790] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Yes. Oh, my gosh. Time management is super important in anyone's life, no matter where you are in your life or what age you are. I was walking through Dragong, I think this is the first time I was ever at Dragong. I did not have a ticket, so I couldn't get in into the exclusive areas. So I was just loitering wherever I could hang out and see some action and so on. And I saw this kid standing by one of the columns inside the hotel with his backpack on the ground, and he had a few copies of his comic book. He was holding them in his hand and offering for people so they would buy it. And I think it was like five bucks. I can't remember the exact price, maybe two dollars. But in that case, he was out there selling it. And so he was also not a paid patron of DragonCon. So he was in the common areas where you could or Kate to hang out. Otherwise, he would be in the booth, nice and neat, all the whole set up. And so he sit out there selling these comic books. And these comic books were commonly called ash cans because a long time ago they used to do a sample run of a comic book on a printer, on a copier.
 
 [00:13:18.900] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 And they were very ashy because there were just supposed to be proofs of how this whole thing works together. It's a test. In those days, it was still a lot of traditional media now. It's pretty digital, everything. I'm walking in and looking at this guy and he's out there on the hustle, he's really selling this thing. So I said, Okay, let me see what's going on here. So I said, Hello. We talked for a second. I asked him some questions about his comic. I can't remember if I bought one or not. I know I was really broke in those days, so I can't recall if I bought one. However, I was very impressed by how one person decided that they were going to make a comic book. He didn't talk about how he was accepted by Marvel, and then Marvel gave him a chance to go ahead and draw a comic. He was just saying that it's a comic I made. And so I'm looking at this guy and I'm talking to him and I'm looking at my life thinking to myself, dang, man, I work all day. I was a cook. In those days, I think I was a prep cook.
 
 [00:14:22.490] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 So I was in the kitchen all day. You're on your feet, you're tired, you get on the bus, you get home, you're spent. And I always carried my book bag with sketchbooks and pencils and markers. And so I'm thinking to myself, okay, what part of the day would I be doing this? And of course, I was a young person. So dating, hanging out, all these other things that young people do when they're out in the wild, I was doing it. So I asked him, I said, So when do you have time? And he says, if you really want it, you'll find the time. He said it like not an inspiration, though it wasn't no aura. He was just like, bam, in your face. And I was like, Whoa, you know what? I need to get my life together.
 
 [00:15:07.030] - Jesus Ramirez
 Well, the reason that resonated with me so much is these days, most people know me for my YouTube channel, the Photoshop Training Channel. And it was sort of similar. I never actually had anyone tell me, if you really want it, you'll find the time. But I just somehow started doing it where I was working a full-time job, will drive back home, get home around five, six, whatever time it was, have dinner, hang out for half an hour or so, eight to midnight, one in the morning, two in the morning, whatever it was. That's when I was creating the content for the YouTube channel when it initially started. But it was that same mentality that I was thinking, if I really want it, then I'm going to have to do it. And it is a grind and it is difficult. But I think that's the difference between people who achieve their goals and people who don't, that you make your goals the priority. And there's nothing wrong with hanging out and going out with friends and having drinks. Hey, if that's what you want to do, bless you. But if you want to achieve something, you definitely have to put in some sacrifice, especially if you have a full-time job.
 
 [00:16:12.600] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 It becomes a second job. I was a cook in those days. I've been a forklift driver. I've been a landscaper. I worked at a steel company. But in any of those, none of those times did I ever call myself a cook. I'm a cook and I do art on the side. My mindset, I'm an artist, I want to be a full-time artist and stuff. And so that's where it starts. We have to have this thing in your brain that says, yes, I am making tool with a job, with an existence, with a step-by-step... Every day schedule because I want something else that I'm working on right now. And this is the main thing. This is the main thing. I just can't give it all my time. This is the main thing. And so besides saying to people that if you really want it, you'll find the time, also tell them, look around you. What is it that you have the most of right now in your house and your possessions and your things? Then that's where your passion is. So all this talk about you wanting to be a full-time artist or you wanting to be a professional.
 
 [00:17:14.440] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 If you got much more of this other thing that's totally unrelated, then that's what you're really passionate about. And you have to look at yourself, switch your brain and say, I need to stop collecting these other things and start collecting this one thing that I really want.
 
 [00:17:29.450] - Jesus Ramirez
 I feel that you and I have a lot of similarities in the way that we think. Not necessarily the same stories or the same thing that happens, but it leads us on the same path. Because what you just mentioned now always reminds me of a quote that I heard when I was first starting out. I don't remember where I heard it, but the quote was, "You're a combination of the five people closest to you."
 
 [00:17:48.960] - Jesus Ramirez
 So if the five people closest to you are just hanging out, playing video games and not doing much, you're probably going to be doing those similar things. If the five people closest to you are artists or photographers or graphic designers or whatever, you're going to be doing those things. So my very first Adobe Max, when I wasn't a speaker and nobody knew who I was, I did what you did. I didn't have the full pass because the pass at the time, and I think now still about the same price was like around $1500 or something, and I didn't have the money. So I just went and hung out to see who I would meet. I did pay a $200 thing for like, I don't know.
 
 [00:18:25.490] - Jesus Ramirez
 I paid a tiny fraction that allowed me access to a certain area. I forgot exactly what it was. But the point is that I wanted to go and meet people and be around people who were in the creative industry because that's what I wanted to do. I also did the same thing in Photoshop World 2013. I had started my YouTube channel and I wanted to go and meet other Photoshop people besides the people in my area. I was putting myself with that community. From what I've seen from you, you've done a lot of that. I know you mentioned earlier you're from East LA, but you live in Atlanta now.
 
 [00:19:00.116] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Right.
 
 [00:19:00.620] - Jesus Ramirez
 From what I've seen, you're involved in pretty much everything that comes to art in Atlanta. It's insane.
 
 [00:19:09.560] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 That's what I want. Growing up, East LA was not a friendly place. The 80s were very rough times. 70s and 80s were crazy. I'm not a kid. When I go home and I'm in LA, I was just in LA a few weeks ago, it's not the same. So I don't know what the pressures are on young people because I'm an old man now. I walk around where I want to go, but I'm friendly too. So it's a different lifestyle. But growing up, it was very difficult to see your future. You don't know, especially going by the examples in your neighborhood and you don't know what your life is going to be like. No one ever told me you can grow up to be an artist. No one told me your talent is good. Here are some resources. I took one art class in high school and I hated it. I didn't like the teacher. I didn't like what we were talking about. And it was not interesting to me. And I never took another art class since. But as I got older, my mother got us out of LA. We moved to Oregon where I finished high school.
 
 [00:20:15.340] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 And then I joined the Marine Corps. I told myself, I want a different life. I want something else. It exists. I know it exists because I see it on TV. There's people who have different lives. It exists. There are other parts of this world it exists. I have to go and see. And so as I got older, I understood, wait a minute, cartoonists get paid for their art. Comic book artists get paid for their art. Animators. There's cartoons on TV. Yo, this is real. How can I do this? I want to know. Somebody show me. I've been on that quest ever since until this day. I want to do some animations. I want to finish some games that I've been working on. I want to do more of this art thing. I married my wife, we have children, we have grandchildren. But she knows that art is my number one passion. I love my own family. I never give up my family, but we have to be fair about how I spend my time with my work and with my art because it's like breathing to me. I have to constantly consume art either I'm making art, watching art, reading art.
 
 [00:21:28.240] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I just read a series of comic books last night. I read the whole story one night. I couldn't stop. And I got to have this. There's no way out of it. And so, yes, you'll find me wherever art is at, I'd be there. All the people in the art stores know me. A lot of different art communities in Atlanta know me. I've been in art shows, I've produced art shows. I've had my artwork at the High Museum of Art in Atlanta. I was part of a special exhibit. My art has been in a big institution. It's my two seconds of fame. But it's like, listen, wherever their art is, I want to know what is it about and what can I put in there that's mine.
 
 [00:22:15.680] - Jesus Ramirez
 Your passion is very obvious and also how much you're willing to expand your horizons because when I first met you, I met you as a host on Adobe Live. And when I clicked on, I think it was your Behance, I scrolled through all your art and I was like, Oh, he's a digital artist. He's a good digital artist. But then when I started looking you up for the podcast, I'm like, Oh, he does tattoos. And again, we go back to the same story where you're not a, quote-unquote, formally trained tattoo artist, but you took an apprenticeship.
 
 [00:22:42.910] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Yes
 
 [00:22:43.000] - Jesus Ramirez
 You're still learning, but you're learning by repetition. And I feel like that's what happened to me. So I do have a bachelor's degree in Multimedia, which it doesn't mean anything. It was literally one class of Photoshop, one class of illustrator, one class of everything, and boom! You have a Multimedia degree. By the way, I got a C in my Photoshop class, which is for people listening outside of the US. It's not a very good grade. It's mediocre at best. I was never a good student myself. I regret it now... Now that I understand the value of education, I wish I probably should have applied myself more to it.
 
 [00:23:18.010] - Jesus Ramirez
 But the mentality that I had growing up was... I was an athlete my entire life. I played soccer. That was my sport. I played soccer in college. And then when I started making that transition from fully focusing on sports to now fully focusing on my work, the same mentality remained where you mentioned it earlier, right? I don't need a degree. I got work to back it up. The same thing is in sports. It doesn't matter as long as you can play. So that's how I feel about what I do now. It doesn't matter as long as I could perform. And a funny anecdote. About four years ago, a friend of mine said, Hey, I know this company. They're looking for a Photoshop artist. I gave them your name. And I was like, Yeah, that's cool. I'll talk to them just to see the project. And I'm talking to somebody on a call, much like I'm talking to you now. And the woman asked, Oh, do you have any degrees or certifications? And I was like, No. And then she's like, Really? And I said, No. And then she goes, Oh, well, we're looking for somebody who's qualified.
 
 [00:24:14.640] - Jesus Ramirez
 And I was like, I've been a speaker several times at Adobe's largest creativity conference. My name is inside the tool..= In Photoshop. I don't need a certification. And then she was like, I'm sorry, we're just looking for somebody who checks these boxes. So, it's really interesting because you will come across those people. But that was actually a blessing because I wouldn't want to work for a company who has those values. I want somebody who says, Hey, DTM, I like your work. I've seen you on Instagram or whatever come in and do some of your stuff for us.
 
 [00:24:49.340] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Let me add a story that's the opposite of that.
 
 [00:24:52.190] - Jesus Ramirez
 Please.
 
 [00:24:52.320] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Let me tell you something. Oh, my gosh. So no certifications over here, no degrees, nothing on my wall, nothing but art, tons of art. I took over the Adobe user group in Atlanta a long time ago. Oh, wow. Cool. I slowly worked my way. They invited me to speak a few times. I didn't know what I was doing. I was just showing some awesome Photoshop illustrator stuff. And so eventually I became a member. Then as time went on, I became an assistant and an assistant manager. People kept moving on, so I kept moving up. And next thing I know, I'm the manager, Adobe user. Group. They're like, That's cool. And so a new technical school made it to Atlanta. They set up a campus. They're doing all these coding camps and classes and so on. And so I I go and ask, Hey, I teach illustrator, Photoshop, and I have a user group. I want to know if you guys are interested in meetups, if you're interested in hosting some classes. They're like, Well, we're willing to try it out. We can do some free stuff. Then later, if there's enough activity, we'll do some paid ones and you get paid.
 
 [00:26:04.320] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I'm like, Great, let's try that. There was this one particular lady, and I don't think she lives here anymore, but she's certified, got degrees and has all the Adobe background you could possibly need from somebody. Well, she also reached out to this technical school. I didn't know that, but of course, I did know her and she knew me because we worked with the Adobe user group many times and we hosted Adobe when they used to come. They used to travel and so on. We used to host Adobe. So I got my contact. I'm talking to one of the managers of this technical school. She's all into what we're trying to do. I hosted a couple of meetups. I'm packed. The place is packed because it was very central to Midtown, Atlanta, in the center of the city. And so everything is good. And I said, Hey, so let's talk about those classes. And then she says, Well, we're interested in the classes, but we need to know your certifications. And I said, Well, I don't have any certifications. But I just proved that I pulled in people. I hosted some meetings. I just showed that I could do this and that I actually know how to do this.
 
 [00:27:11.330] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I've been doing it for a long time or at least long enough that it's proven track record. And she says, Well, we want to do a class, but we're going to go with this lady who's certified. I said, I know her. That's cool. No problem. She says, Okay, thanks, Dan. All right. So I'm a little bit disappointed and I'm like, I'm not getting any certifications, man. Forget that. Well, what happens? Days later and days before their first class with this lady, this manager calls me, says, Hey, Dan, so and so can make it. Can you come in and teach the class? I said, I will be there. Yo, man, I taught that class for the three or four years that that school was here in Atlanta.
 
 [00:27:57.820] - Jesus Ramirez
 Wow, that's amazing. No certifications.
 
 [00:28:01.720] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 No certifications. I didn't see that lady ever again. I think I'm sure she had some issues, and I think she did move out of Atlanta. So it was nothing malicious between me and her, but it just so happened that she couldn't make it. And boom, so they called the next person up, and I've been doing fine. I did fine. And once the pandemic began, we were still teaching and it was all over video, over the Internet. And then the school shut down a whole bunch of stuff because it was hard to sustain. But yeah, man, no certifications, no nothing. I came right on in. I did my job for a long time.
 
 [00:28:33.930] - Jesus Ramirez
 Especially for the type of work that we do. If you're a creator of almost any sort, very rarely would somebody ask you for their certification. And if they do, just show them your work. And if they still want the certification, you probably don't want to work for them.
 
 [00:28:46.120] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Right, exactly. To this day, that's never been a hindrance. That's the only time that ever came up.
 
 [00:28:52.480] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I've worked with Microsoft, Newell Brands, Elmer's glue, and a couple of other companies I can't remember right now. Big corporations. That's right. This is why I stream so much. This is why you see my posts. This is why I talk is that I present myself on the most professional level you can think of as someone who knows what they're talking about and can do the work and repetition. You keep mentioning that word, repetition. I'm pretty sure that's part of your mantra is that, yes, we have to practice, practice, practice till we get it right and then keep that doing. Now you know how to do it right and that's it. That's your zone now. I try to show that in all my work, the internet is available for all of us to use to our advantage. It's available for you to tell your story the way you want to be told in your words. And that's the message that I want people to catch when they see me, when they find my work. And so then the certifications and degrees and awards, it doesn't even enter their mind. They're already amazed by my charisma and modesty and they're like, Come on in, Dan. Come on in because we need you.
 
 [00:30:02.430] - Jesus Ramirez
 There's so much to unpack in those couple of sentences that you have that I'll just say three things and I want to move on to the next thing. Number one is, I believe that if you work hard enough, sure, the certifications don't matter, but then some people might just start giving them to you. I was a terrible student. I mentioned that I did have my bachelor's degree, but I think college, no joke, it must have been like a 2.1, whatever, below a 2.5. Not very good grades when I was in college. But in 2019, I was awarded one of the 40 Under 40 Awards from my university because of all my work that I've done. And I was like, Isn't this insane? I was a terrible student. And here I am at this ceremony where I'm getting this award just because I did really well in work has nothing to do with school. But they still want to give me something. I was like, Hey, my only certification, or my only award from school, besides my diploma, is a 40 Under 40. But that only came about because I did good work.
 
 [00:30:58.030] - Jesus Ramirez
 You also mentioned repetition, and the comment that I wanted to make is, yes, that is my mantra. And something that I started doing because of this podcast is I had one test interview and I realized, Oh, my God, I'm not a good podcaster. I don't want this to fail. So I need to get repetition. So what I did is there are services online, some paid, some free. It's almost like a dating app where you create a profile and then podcasts reach out to you to be on their shows. I've actually been on three or four podcasts now. Only one has been released at the moment of this recording. But in my mind is I got to get on podcast. I got to learn how to be a podcaster, how to interview people, how to talk to people on the microphone through the internet. So I'm trying to do as many as those as I can I can, I mentioned to you before we started the show that I'm recording a lot of these episodes before they're even released because I want to get the numbers up. I want to get the repetition s up. I don't want to just record one episode, have it not be up to my standards, whatever that means, or have it be or have it go bad and then see a bunch of negative comments that I get discouraged and don't want to do anymore.
 
 [00:32:05.120] - Jesus Ramirez
 So I'm doing all the work now. And if people have comments, I'm like, whatever, I already have 10 in the cans. I can use those comments maybe as yes, motivation, but also maybe some of those comments may have valuable points that I could apply to the next batch.
 
 [00:32:19.940] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Sure. Right.
 
 [00:32:20.960] - Jesus Ramirez
 We're running out of time, but I do want to get a little bit into NFTs. As I mentioned, I don't know anything about NFTs. Can you explain to me what they are, how they work, and what you're doing in that world?
 
 [00:32:33.730] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Yeah. So the idea is that you're selling digital versions of your artwork that later someone can monetize. And if that person decides to sell that digital version of that artwork to someone else, you, the creator, gets a cut. Versus if I was to finish a painting, sell it to somebody for $100, and then a year related and sell it for $1,000, I don't get any commission on that or royalties. This painting is sold. And the fine art world has done well in exploiting artists and taking advantage of artists who are not negotiating for themselves. But I think that's industries in general, no industry is innocent. And so that's how I got interested in it. Wait a minute, you're saying that there can be a contract that's immutable, unchangeable. It lives on a blockchain, which is some code that lives on the internet somewhere and that it can't be killed, it can't be stopped. And so when I sell you something, the day you sell it, you don't have to tell me. I don't have to be paying attention to your house. Hey, where's that painting? I don't have to. It's on the internet. I get an email, I see my wallet, there's extra money in there.
 
 [00:33:55.070] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 It's like, Whoa, one of my pieces, either I sold it or somebody sold it what they had is the one. I was like, That's a great idea. That's perfect. That's awesome. However, there's been cases in the past couple of years where the person who initially buys it tries to create this sense of scarcity and FOMO. And then there's people who come behind it and want to buy it from them. And so it's sold over and over and over. And then the artist puts out certain collections or really founders because the artist, again, exploited, again, one more time by teams of people who end up creating this hype about something. And then people buy, others want to buy it. And so now because supply and demand, now the prices are really sky high. And those who bought first end up cashing in and getting a lot of money for their investment. And so that's where it starts to get murky for me. It's like, you guys, that's not what art was about. And you say you didn't want to be like fine art and galleries, but here we go with the same story. I don't get it.
 
 [00:34:58.170] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I don't get that part. Why are we doing this? But at the end of the day, to me, it's another marketplace. It's another marketplace to sell digital goods. And if you think about it as Minecraft or any of these games where you buy in game things, but you can't take them to the grocery store with you. No matter how much gold you have in a particular mobile game, you can't take it to the grocery store and buy your groceries with it. So it is with the crypto and NFTs. Out in the world, if the person don't care about it, nothing's going to happen. But I will tell you this, I have sold enough NFTs that I've gotten enough money in crypto to buy things in real life from somebody who's willing to accept crypto.
 
 [00:35:42.660] - Jesus Ramirez
 As payment. Is that something that you would encourage artists to at least dabble with, or is that something that requires too much time and effort? What recommendations do you have for just the regular person?
 
 [00:35:54.060] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 The regular person should align themselves with someone who's doing something related to crypto and watch their steps and learn from them. Last year, a year ago, a little over a year ago, I started that NFT collection. I started it as a fun thing to do. It started to sell. Other artists were in my circles, they say, Hey, Dan, can I draw one of those drawings for the NFT collection? I said, yes. Next thing I know, I have 10 artists working with me on something fun. Then we started to sell the NFT. They immediately, by hanging out with me and collaborated with me, they became NFT creators. Then they became NFT sellers. Then I gave them a cut from some of the sales so they became crypto holders. So all of a sudden, by just aligning yourselves with someone who is going through the experience and you can learn from the experience, then you can figure out whether or not it's for you. But you should at least give it a trial and see whether you like it or you don't like it. There's a lot of things that I don't like about it. There's a lot of things that I do like about it.
 
 [00:36:58.070] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 And so just with anything else, with tattoos, with fine art, with the certifications and degrees, I will do the things that I like. I will find the customers and the business and position myself into the things that I like. And the things that are a bit too much is like, you know what, you guys can have that. Good luck.
 
 [00:37:19.200] - Jesus Ramirez
 It's a crazy new world out there. And you know what? It's funny because it seems like this is the theme with the last couple of guests that I have. And I want to ask your opinion on something. What is your opinion on A.I. Art?
 
 [00:37:32.280] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Daing. Wow. Another exploitation. The exploitation of artists never ends. Don't get me started on my unpopular opinions. But I can go on all day about anything we're talking about, man. Number one, there's always going to be something that we're arguing and fighting about. It's very sad because we're all human and we're all people, and we all deserve our own happiness and be able to follow our passions. However, the exploitation of artists is really ugly, and that's why I'm all about art business education. I really push this hard on everybody. One thing we don't have, artists don't have is protection because we don't protect ourselves. No one's going to here to take care of you when historically, artists have been taking advantage forever. Since the first day the caveman started throwing something on the wall, there's been somebody been trying to take advantage of that person. The music industry went hard after other artists who sampled music that they did not have copyright to. There was a time period when people started sampling music because there was a lot of electronic happening. Then to when the court cases finally came through and then people had to pay up for these copyright violations and train marks and so on.
 
 [00:39:01.380] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 That's what we are right now. We're right now where these tools are available to us. There was some facts, who knows how true it is, but about Lindsay and how much money they made in this year versus their whole history.
 
 [00:39:17.540] - Jesus Ramirez
 And remind me, is that the app with the AI faces? Is that what it is?
 
 [00:39:21.380] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Yes, Lenza is one of those apps where you take a picture of yourself and then throw some filters on and it's AI. But the profit would not be possible if the public wasn't complicit in it. From the moment hip hop artists started using Jane Brown music and their music and their tracks, we were at the store buying those tapes. The sampling music started a long time ago. Nowadays, you have to clear those samples. You have to pay for those copyrights and so on. Eventually, we're going to get past this early period where there will be laws. The copyrights are going to have to be honored and some people will get paid. If you as an artist, as a visual artist, has copyrighted your works, you're going to get paid. If you did not copyright your works and you're just posting on the internet, it's going to be a hard fight for you to get your 25 cent out of the settlement whenever that actually happens. And that's where the art business education comes in is that are we protecting ourselves? I copyright some of my works because I have game ideas, I have a comic book ideas, and I have an attorney, and then a business manager who's my wife, who say, Damn, you need to handle this, you need to handle that.
 
 [00:40:44.980] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I tell them, you do it, and then they do it. I sign paperwork and I say, Okay, we're covered. But a lot of artists, a lot of people who are complaining, they haven't done that. Otherwise, they would not be complaining. What you do is you call your attorney and say, Hey, we got a target, we're ready to get paid. T hat's what Copyright Protection does for you is that it's a slam dunk. The day I walk into Target and I see my artwork on some shirts, I'll go, Oh, my God. That's the day I'm rich. I'm not going to be mad at Target. I'll be like, Hey, you guys used the wrong version of that drawing, but I don't care. Let me call my attorney and we're going to get paid.
 
 [00:41:25.970] - Jesus Ramirez
 Absolutely. A resource that I would like to give everybody listening to, if this is something that you want to do for yourself is a friend of mine, Von Glitchka, which I think you may know, Daniel.
 
 [00:41:37.180] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Met him, talked to him.
 
 [00:41:38.460] - Jesus Ramirez
 Yes. He's a good guy. He's out of Oregon, actually, if not mistaken, Salem. But he has what I like to describe as a course on how to sue people on LinkedIn learning. So if you go to LinkedIn learning, you type in Von V O N Glitchka. Don't ask me how to spell it, but his link will be in the show notes. But he has a course on how to protect yourself legally and what to do in case somebody infringes your rights. His daughter was playing, and I don't remember the video game, but she was playing a video game, and one of the characters in the game had a tattoo, and that tattoo was one of his designs. So he actually got a check from UV soft, I think, the company who created the game was, because the artist who was creating, I'm assuming, the game textures, for whatever reason, decided to take one of his, I think it was a trivial design, and applied it to the character's arm. And it was insane that his artwork had been found inside a game, but apparently got a nice check from it. So it turned out to be a good thing.
 
 [00:42:39.900] - Jesus Ramirez
 But the thing is that artists, people creating any type of work, whether it's visual work, audio, anything should protect themselves legally. Obviously, we're talking about here in the US and obviously other places may have similar things, but in the US, that's a resource where I recommend artists to start just so they can get an idea of how this works. And I don't know if you have any other resources.
 
 [00:43:02.240] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I think that having a business mindset about your career is very important. That's it. That's where it starts. And so your protection begins with yourself, with how you organize your artwork. I'm not sure quite the price, but it was around $30, $35 where you can grab all your artwork from the month, put it together in a nice little package, submit it to the Library of Congress, pay $35, and now it's copyrighted. The fact that somebody is going to steal it, you cannot get away from that. There's no way out of that. What you don't want to do if you're a terrorist is walk around with your wallet in your hand and don't pay attention to what's going on around you, but you put it in your pocket. You protect yourself. Then that's what the business mindset of an artist needs to be. How can I protect my artwork, my creations? And so you create your artwork before you post it. Like you're doing with the podcast, perfect example. You're going to have 10 podcasts in the can, then you will publish at the time intervals that you want. So it is with your artwork. If you're really, really concerned, you finish all your artwork for the past week or so, submit to the Library of Congress, get it copyrighted, and then for the next week or two, you're posting every other day as if you just finished it at that moment.
 
 [00:44:25.840] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 But it's protected so that when someone takes it and uses it, you're not mad about it. You're like, Hey, I need to know who was your legal counsel, man. That's all I need to know. You're cool. You and I are cool. My people will call your people.
 
 [00:44:43.540] - Jesus Ramirez
 For sure. And something I wanted to ask you is how often are you submitting to the Library of Congress? Is that something you do once a month, every time you create something, only specific pieces? How does that work?
 
 [00:44:55.780] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I only submit the things that I have big plans for. And a lot of the art that I do is fan art. A lot of that stuff I can't copyright myself. It's just not going to be possible. I draw a predator all the time. I think that's a cool-looking character. So some of that stuff is just going to get out there. And whoever uses it, I have to be okay with it because I was using Mickey Mouse and I did not own the rights to Mickey Mouse, so the license to even draw Mickey Mouse. So if Disney takes it and puts it on their app, well, game recognized game. Disney, I got you. That's cool, man. But if it's something serious that I'm working on and I know I have some ideas, I don't know when I get to them, oh, man, that's going in a pamphlet and a booklet together. It's called a collection and it's related together. It can be a collection that's from a time period. It can be a collection that's related to a theme, a game, a comic, some characters or something like that. You can't copyright ideas, but you can copyright the artwork.
 
 [00:45:56.600] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 So you need to organize that artwork into an idea that goes together and bam. I know artists who do it every quarter. Every quarter they copyright. And it becomes an expense. And having an attorney on call is also an expense. But let me tell you, you won't let go of so much anger, your mental health will improve because you know things are being taken care of and I can just focus on drawing and being fun on the internet.
 
 [00:46:28.300] - Jesus Ramirez
 That's great advice. I think that's where we'll end the main interview, but I do like to finish the show with a few lightning-round questions. Your answers can be very short, they could be long, they could lead to a story. Totally up to you, or you can say skip. The first question is, tell us a shocking fact about yourself.
 
 [00:46:53.400] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Shocking fact about myself is that in the beginning when I started drawing, by the time I got to middle school and high school, I was giving away a lot of artwork. I would draw something, people will like it, and, oh, that's cool. And I'm like, here you go. Boom. By the time I got to high school, I told myself, you know what? People are going to have to pay for this. I was selling my artwork in school for a lunch ticket. Back in those days, we had little lunch tickets. Every week you get a booklet, boom, those are your lunches for the week, breakfast and lunch. I would trade them for lunch tickets. I would eat two, three burritos at lunch. I was eating good because I'm like, You know what? When I have somebody once, so I need something in return. I don't know how shocking that is, but man, I've been in business.
 
 [00:47:44.220] - Jesus Ramirez
 For a long time. Yeah, man. It's funny because I also went to school here in California, so I totally remember the lunch tickets back in school. So I hadn't thought about that in decades, but I also had those lunch tickets. French fries were the best food you could get with a lunch ticket in my school. The next question is, when was the last time you felt proud of yourself?
 
 [00:48:06.800] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Oh, man. Last night? Wow. This morning, actually.
 
 [00:48:09.950] - Jesus Ramirez
 Oh, this morning? Yeah. I'm assuming because you were coming on the show.
 
 [00:48:13.860] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Right. I was like, I made it. I made it. I'm in Today's Creator podcast. Oh, my gosh. I have a very inquisitive mind, very curious. I'm constantly thinking of ways to break something, to mash up things that don't go together and see how well I can put them to work for myself. And so today I was working with my set up. I have three different workstations here in my home office that one day one of these computers is going to die and I'm going to be very sad. I'm going to cry a little bit, but I'm going to go to my other workstation and get back to work. And so I'm very proud of the fact that it's been a long way coming, but that I've slowly built enough tools that I am guaranteed to continue working no matter what obstacles come my way. I figured out some things that I can do in my home office. I was like, yes, yes, yes, this is good. That's where my passion goes. When I mentioned earlier that how much stuff do you have, it's all art related. I'm pretty proud of that.
 
 [00:49:17.280] - Jesus Ramirez
 That's amazing. You're also setting up yourself for future success.
 
 [00:49:20.500] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 That's great. That's right.
 
 [00:49:22.000] - Jesus Ramirez
 What is the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
 
 [00:49:25.280] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 What Orlando Arocena said, Mexifunk. If you can get a hold of him, you need to talk to him. not to him. Sounds good. I'll even tag you together. Perfect. In one of his talks, he was talking to Chris Doe. Orlando was talking about his art, where he's an illustrator genius. He said, "Layers are free." And when he said that, it unlocked the part of how we look at art in that you should be free to experiment and try things out. And if you don't like it, it's cool. You don't lose anything. Just turn that layer off. And when you relate to it in traditional art, when we do a painting in the murals that I worked on, you don't necessarily paint by numbers like you would in a coloring book where the hat is one color and the face is another color. What you do is you layer. You put in layers of paint, you layer your tones, you layer your textures so that at the end it looks like what it's supposed to look like. When he said that, I was like, Whoa, that means a lot more than what you think you just said.
 
 [00:50:32.520] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 My artwork just I started to feel more comfortable in just throwing things at it, changing my blend modes, throwing more things at it, change more blend modes. Oh, my gosh.
 
 [00:50:43.180] - Jesus Ramirez
 Just to see what happens.
 
 [00:50:45.100] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 And if you don't like it, turn it off.
 
 [00:50:49.050] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Right. That's the beauty.
 
 [00:50:52.040] - Jesus Ramirez
 Have you had an I made it moment? Besides this morning, of course.
 
 [00:50:56.860] - Jesus Ramirez
 Right. I'm afraid of falling into that emotion, but I have it all the time. I have it all the time. You sign a good deal, you get a good client. I've had these conversations with clients where they say, Okay, Dan, we'll send you a check. I'm like, Whoa. That was the response to my quote. When I gave them my price, that was the response. I was like, Oh, my gosh. No certifications, no degrees. I didn't have to go in and pitch. I don't have to show my work and explain to them how I can do the job for me and coach. No, they see my work. They're convinced of my talent. They like the price. They think it's fair. I think it's fair. And they say, Easy, easy. Yes. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh. This is what they mean. This is what big mentors that I've seen on the internet, Chris Doe, one of them, Gary Vee and anyone else, several people that I've watched through the years and talk about great customer interactions and relationships.
 
 [00:52:02.540] - Jesus Ramirez
 Very important.
 
 [00:52:04.020] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Yes. And you're like, Whoa, man, because in the early days, you give them a price and they look at you like you just insulted them and want to take their home from them. Like, Whoa, I said $25.
 
 [00:52:17.740] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I even got hung up on by a call came in and it was a law firm. They needed a logo. I gave them a price and the person said, Oh, that's too high. And they hung up on me. And I like, Wait a minute, but you're an attorney? You guys charge more than that an hour because I know because I had an attorney before.
 
 [00:52:39.680] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 But yes, I have it all the time now. And when I don't have it, when somebody doesn't want to give it to my price or my terms, I'm like, Hey, well, good luck with it and you have much success with it. I look forward to seeing you make it. Be at peace with yourself. Mental health.
 
 [00:53:00.600] - Jesus Ramirez
 What's the most difficult part about being a creator?
 
 [00:53:05.540] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 The hardest part for me is, I guess, having enough income that for a long period of time, I don't have to work on other people's projects, which is my source of income, and then work on my own personal project is just I need more time for my personal project. People should know my characters. They should see them on an animation somewhere. Even if it doesn't make me super rich and I'm not Walt Disney of 100 years ago, it's okay. This needs to be out there. That's the hardest part for me as a creator is finding the time to be able to put my energy into my passion projects so that they launch one day.
 
 [00:53:47.880] - Jesus Ramirez
 Same here. That's exactly what I would say if I answer that question. Just need more time to do the things that I want to do when it comes to my work. What would you like to be remembered for? What mark do you want to leave in the world?
 
 [00:54:00.860] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 That I've been a professional all the way through and through. You asked me to do something, I agreed to do it, and I come through. You mentioned repetition, and I never thought of the word repetition that way looking at myself, but that's exactly what it is. You train yourself to a particular level to that then you can't do it wrong. Even if you try, the muscle memory is there. I can do it. And to me, that's professionalism. I don't understand athletes who step into the football field and then they have a bad day. Wait a minute, man, you've been a PEWI footballer since you were five years old. How are you 35 and then you just can't throw that ball right? That day is just off. What are you talking about? The landscaper can't say, Well, the scissors just went away. I wasn't feeling the scissors today. I couldn't cut that bush right. That guy doesn't have that entitlement for his work. He has to produce. He's a professional. I feel like I'm a professional. I have trained myself to put the habits together that put me into the creative zone the moment that I'm ready to sit down.
 
 [00:55:14.880] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 I put in the calendar. I have my times, I have my schedule. It's like, Oh, I told my wife I got to go. It's time to go. I told my grandkids, Grandpa got to go to work. When I sit down, I'm not chilling, eatingpop corn. I may still watch judge Judy when I'm about to get to work, but it's like, boom, this is the work time. I have to produce this is what I have to do because I'm going to get paid for it. Then I'll be able to live my life the way I want to and do the things that I want to do. If I fail in any of my professional... Any aspect of my professional life, then that ride ends. I don't want that ride to end.
 
 [00:55:54.040] - Jesus Ramirez
 You mentioned one thing that reminded me so much of a quote that I really like that I actually took to heart when I was learning how to become a public speaker. My first speaking event, I was terrified and I really wanted to do well, which I didn't, by the way. But it taught me a valuable lesson. And I heard a quote that really helped me become good at it, which is the difference between the professional and the amateur is that the amateur practices until they get it right and the professional practices until they can't get it wrong.
 
 [00:56:29.200] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Until they can't get it wrong.
 
 [00:56:30.210] - Jesus Ramirez
 That's right. When I heard that, I was like, Oh, my God. I just got to keep repetition, doing it over and over and over again until I get good at it. If somebody is wanting to do something new in their life, they have to put in that work and they have to put in that repetition so that they get good and good doesn't have to mean world class. It could just mean good so that you're comfortable with it.
 
 [00:56:50.580] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Good so that whoever wants it accepts it and you've done your job.
 
 [00:56:56.580] - Jesus Ramirez
 And my last question is, where can people find you? What would be the best way to see your work, reach you, anything you want to let the audience know about?
 
 [00:57:06.040] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Yes. Anywhere where you hang out and look for art, look for Delta, Tango, Mike. That's my Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and website, DeltaTangoMike. And if you don't want to... Not in any of the social medias, just jump on to the browser, type in the search bar DeltaTangoMike, one word, everything that shows up. I am very fortunate that that's not a common name. Daniel Flores is, Dan Flores is, your name is.
 
 [00:57:37.370] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Very common.
 
 [00:57:39.180] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Right. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. It's like, Okay, which one are you? Okay, no, my artist's name is very unique. I started using that for branding before I even knew the word branding. It's like when people were locking in nicknames on the internet, I locked that in. That's great. And no one's ever... And so it's worked well for me. So yeah, just find me, say hello, tag me in your work. I'm very open to engaging with other artists. Only people on my timeline and Facebook and Twitter are artists, Instagram artists. I don't know anyone. I went to high school. I don't know anyone I grew up with. I don't talk to them. I don't care about their opinions. I just want to hang out with artists.
 
 [00:58:23.800] - Jesus Ramirez
 Awesome. That sounds great. I love it, man. I love it. Thank you so much. Today's creator was Daniel DTM Flores. DTM, thank you so much.
 
 [00:58:33.920] - Daniel "DTM" Flores
 Thank you for having me.